@Pantagrueliste , please examine 9 instances of se connaitre, and propose a translation of each. 144v: <144v> under the heading "Turtles p1": "S’il y a du crocum dans le sable les joinctures des molles ne se cognoissent presque point." Here, initially connaitre was translated as “will not join well." This is the meaning of the word in its context, but in 2018, this was changed to: “If there is some crocum in the sand, the joints of the molds will almost not recognize each other.” TT: I think this should actually be "will not be recognised" – this is a common meaning of cognoistre in the ms, as I found in my exploration of the term (see my essay); and the use of the reflexive to say "one recognises" etc. is fairly standard) HW&SD: In view of the point we are making here, it would be good to translate this as "they will not recognize each other" and maintain the agency of the verb, i.e. not put it into the passive voice! PHS: we need to decide on this, and also look at the other points where this term is used w.r.t. molding turtles. TT: no, I don’t think what they suggest is a faithful translation. As MHS pointed out at WGM, the use of the reflexive to express a passive is standard, and the attribution of agency to the joints is too fanciful to warrant departure from the more likely and more standard reading.
I reviewed all the reflexives that the a-p uses with cognoistre and @TillmannTaape is right: they can all be translated with passive constructions, but they're not always indispensable. (See my suggestions further down)
Folio | | KWIC | -- | -- | -- | -- tcnp029rpreTEI | on veult mectre au four. Cela se | cognoist | quand elle s’estire assés sans se rompre. Et si elle tcnp039rpreTEI | vauldra gueres. La bonté du pastel se | cognoist | quand estant mis en la bouche il rend goust comme de vinaigre tcnp051rpreTEI | Et si tu veulx que cela ne se | cognoisse | poinct, si par cas fortuict tu as emprunté la piece, tcnp051rpreTEI | ce qui a esté faict, ne se | cognoistra | point. L’eau de savon faict jaulnir la piece, mays tcnp064vpreTEI | destrempe veulent estre grasses, ce qui se | cognoist | quand elles prenent à la pallete estant destrempées à huile tcnp093vpreTEI | tousjours lavé pource que les ordures qui se | cognoissent | dans les laveures le font mourir. Il le fault coucher toujours tcnp098vpreTEI | Les petits chiens qui doivent estre barbets se | cognoissent | à ce qu’ilz ont le mœufle plus gros que les aultres tcnp107rpreTEI | feroient bien un linge. Les dangereulx se | cognoissent | aulx yeulx bleus & assés aseurés azurés. Il ne mordent gueres tcnp111vpreTEI | , ne blanc ne rouge, ne se | cognoisse | parmy l’autre. Si ton plastre n’estoit fort n’y tcnp132vpreTEI | , jusques à ce qu’il ne se | cognoissoit | sur l’ongle aulcune asperité. Puys je l’ay destrempé en tcnp144vpreTEI | costé asseure leur joincture, qui ne se | cognoist | que bien peu, avecq deulx crampons, affin qu’en descouvrant tcnp144vpreTEI | sable, les joinctures des molles ne se | cognoissent | presque point. Tourne au second fœillet. tcnp164vpreTEI | il apartient, il soubstient. Il se | cognoist | bon quand, esta n t chault aprés le gect, il
Current translation
Folio | | KWIC | -- | -- | -- | -- tcnp029rpreTEI | one isready to put in the <tl>oven</tl>. | This is perceivable | when it can stretch enough without breaking. tcnp039rpreTEI | The goodness of the <pa>pastel woad</pa> | is known | when, put in the <bp>mouth</bp>, it gives a <sn>taste as of<m>vinegar</m></sn> tcnp051rpreTEI | And if you want this not to | be known, | if, by chance, you borrowed the piece, moisten the <m>paper</m> tcnp051rpreTEI | what has beendone, will not | be known. | The <m>soap water</m> will turn the piece tcnp064vpreTEI | <m>Distemper</m> colors want to be fatty, which | is recognized | when they take on the <tl>palette</tl> once tempered in <m>oil</m>.</ab> tcnp093vpreTEI | <m><fr>Azur d’esmail</fr></m> always wants to be cleaned because the <m>filth</m> that can | be seen | in the <m>wash water</m> makes it die. tcnp098vpreTEI | Small <al>dogs</al> who should be <al>water-dogs</al> | are known | by this, that they have a larger muzzle than others. tcnp107rpreTEI | they would with a <m>linen</m>. The dangerous ones | are recognisable | by their blue & <add>azure</add> eyes. tcnp111vpreTEI | neither white nor red, | is recognised | among the other. tcnp132vpreTEI | until no roughness | was recognisable | on the fingernail. tcnp144vpreTEI | on each side secure their joint, which can hardly | find each other | with two <tl>clamps</tl>, in order that when uncovering tcnp144vpreTEI | <m>sand</m>, the joints of the <tl>molds</tl> will almost not | find each other. | tcnp164vpreTEI | One | recognizes it | as good when, being hot after the cast,
Folio | | KWIC | -- | -- | -- | -- tcnp107rpreTEI | they would with a <m>linen</m>. The dangerous ones | are recognizable | by their blue & <add>azure</add> eyes. tcnp111vpreTEI | neither white nor red, | is recognized | among the other. tcnp132vpreTEI | until no roughness | was recognizable | on the fingernail. tcnp144vpreTEI | on each side secure their joint, which can hardly | be recognized | with two <tl>clamps</tl>, in order that when uncovering tcnp144vpreTEI | <m>sand</m>, the joints of the <tl>molds</tl> are almost not | recognizable. |
I have to say that the verb "to perceive" seems like a good translation for many of these.
tcnp029rpreTEI | one isready to put in the oven. | This is PERCEPTIBLE| when it can stretch enough without breaking. -- | -- | -- | -- tcnp039rpreTEI | The goodness of the pastel woad | is PERCEIVED| when, put in the mouth, it gives a taste as ofvinegar tcnp051rpreTEI | And if you want this not to | be PERCEIVED/PERCEPTIBLE, | if, by chance, you borrowed the piece, moisten the paper tcnp051rpreTEI | what has beendone, will not | be PERCEIVED/PERCEPTIBLE. | The soap water will turn the piece tcnp064vpreTEI | Distemper colors want to be fatty, which | is recognized| when they take on the palette once tempered in oil. tcnp093vpreTEI | Azur d’esmail always wants to be cleaned because the filth that can | be PERCEIVED/IS PERCEPTIBLE| in the wash water makes it die. tcnp098vpreTEI | Small dogs who should be water-dogs | are RECOGNIZED| by this, that they have a larger muzzle than others. tcnp107rpreTEI | they would with a linen. The dangerous ones | are RECOGNIZED??| by their blue & azure eyes. tcnp111vpreTEI | neither white nor red, | is PERCEPTIBLE| among the other. tcnp132vpreTEI | until no roughness | was PERCEPTIBLE| on the fingernail. tcnp144vpreTEI | on each side secure their joint, which IS HARDLY PERCEPTIBLE/IS HARDLY TO BE PERCEIVED?, with two clamps, in order that when uncovering tcnp144vpreTEI | sand, the joints of the molds will almost not | BE PERCEPTIBLE/. | tcnp164vpreTEI | One | recognizes it | as good when, being hot after the cast,
What do you think @Pantagrueliste and @TillmannTaape